| -- End Ad Box ---> | | | | about the progress of the country in real terms are |
| Aruna Roy is a social activist who is best known for | | | | put behind bars. It is not an answer. |
| her endeavours for betterment of the rural poor in | | | | It is quite evident that most of our natural resources |
| the state of Rajasthan. In 2000, she was awarded | | | | are located in the backward and tribal areas. |
| with the Ramon Magsaysay Award for Community | | | | Government is quite rightly saying that there is need |
| Leadership. Her continuous campaigns were | | | | of resources for the development of society. But by |
| instrumental in enactment of the Right to Information | | | | doing that the livelihood of tribal and poor fall in |
| act -2005. She was as a member of the National | | | | jeopardy. How can a balance be maintained between |
| Advisory Council for two years, where she helped | | | | these paradoxes? |
| and advocated the passage of the Right to | | | | Aruna Roy: Have you heard about climate change |
| Information Act and the National Rural Employment | | | | and global warming? Have you hared about depletion |
| Guarantee Act. Her contribution to the cause has | | | | of forest? Do you realise that incidents like Tsunami |
| been widely acknowledged. Here is an Exclusive | | | | and Katrina cannot be isolated? Do you realise that |
| telephonic interview of Aruna Roy with Santosh H K | | | | poles are melting and sea level is rising? Ironically, the |
| Narayan of Headlines India on contemporary | | | | path of development our country is following is |
| socio-economic issues. | | | | leading us on the same path. So the exploitation of |
| Very recently you met Sonia Gandhi highlighting the | | | | natural resources should be done judiciously. It can't |
| issue of tribal and poor peoples land. What was the | | | | be given to institutions, who are interested only in |
| outcome? | | | | profit making. All the companies from abroad who are |
| Aruna Roy: I met her along with a delegation- which | | | | now making their presence felt in India have already |
| included many campaigners from 'Janadesh-2007', | | | | destroyed their own environment. They will do the |
| which is at present the main focus of our activity. At | | | | same even here. |
| least 25000 people are marching from Gwalior to | | | | Let's put all this information in the public domain and |
| Delhi, demanding a land reform policy from the | | | | have a debate. In the era of Gandhiji, all the issues |
| government. Land should be given to the tillers at the | | | | were debated publicly with Netajee, Ambedkar, |
| earliest. In the National Common Minimum programme | | | | Nehru and others. Only then the final decision would |
| the UPA government had promised that people | | | | be taken. The issues ranging from the amount of |
| would get their land and their livelihood would be | | | | land that would be used for development; to the |
| ensured, therefore we went to ask the UPA | | | | environmental damage done in terms of global |
| Chairperson that there is a commitment made by this | | | | warming, everything should be debated. Let's analyse |
| government and it should be honoured. So, in | | | | all the facts and then decide what is good or bad. |
| principle, she accepted our claim, but regarding the | | | | And number two, the people who are going to be |
| formation of a land policy and the commission to | | | | affected must be a par t of the debate. Not that |
| execute it, she told, she would be talking to the | | | | you take a decision and then go and tell them that |
| Prime Minister. The PM has already been provided | | | | we have decided these things. |
| with the papers related to the matter. We requested | | | | If you tell the rich people who are living in cities and |
| her that there should be some immediate | | | | have invested their money that the government is |
| announcement by the government after due | | | | going to take their property for investing it in other |
| consultation with civil society groups and activists by | | | | development projects. Will they agree? In a |
| the time the ongoing march (Janadesh-2007) arrives | | | | democracy, it is the right of the people- whose land |
| in Delhi. But Sonia didn't make any commitment. | | | | is being taken in the name of public purpose- to |
| As you said tribals and poor farmers are marching | | | | know what the public purpose amounts to. Just |
| towards Delhi. What are the targets they are aiming | | | | ponder over Maoism. I think it is a very clever ploy |
| to achieve? | | | | on the part of people who want to resort to |
| Aruna Roy: There are no targets as such. They have | | | | violence. It is in their interest because once you |
| certain demands. Janadesh- 2007 is a fight for the | | | | declare an individual a Naxal or Maoist, you can kill him |
| right to live and livelihood. Their demands include that | | | | anytime! If some body says that 'don't take my land' |
| the land should remain with its tillers. Farmers who | | | | that person can be killed. Today, if you talk about |
| own land today should be given a commitment that it | | | | your own land then you would be branded a Naxalite! |
| would not be taken away from them. For all those | | | | Capitalism is a fight for the private property. It says |
| who have been alloted land only on papers, should be | | | | that there should be privatisation of everything. In |
| given the actual position of the same. People who | | | | that context the land of poor would also be a private |
| got land at the time of Binova Bhave and | | | | property for some people. |
| subsequently during Indira Gandhi's period still own | | | | Government is talking about food security, but poor |
| their land on papers. Violence against those who go | | | | and peasant are far from getting that and going |
| and cultivate on their own land should be checked | | | | even further away. How should the governmental |
| with immediate effect. | | | | policies be redirected to ensure the food security? |
| Land reform policy should be such that it ensures | | | | Aruna Roy: Firstly, let the farmers and tribal have |
| security and livelihood of thousands and lakhs of | | | | their land. Secondly, ensure financial stability to them. |
| farmers in this country. To what extent will Pepsi, | | | | Provide them loans at the same interest rate that |
| colas and Macdonald's will replace farming in this | | | | they were getting earlier. All the basic inputs of |
| country? Farming is an activity which incorporates | | | | farmers should be made available to them. Only then |
| many things. It is a employment programme; a | | | | the food security would be established. Because, |
| self-reliance programme. You just can't take | | | | there have to be production before you have food |
| profit-loss account everywhere. | | | | security. You can't convert all your lands into mines; in |
| We can witness a continuous struggle going on by | | | | industries, or use it in producing fodder for foreign |
| farmers and tribals fo rtheir rights. What do you think | | | | cows and simultaneously, have the food security. We |
| are the main reasons for that? | | | | have to ensure production and provide employment |
| Aruna Roy: The main reason for it is the | | | | to buy food security. |
| non-implementation of of land reforms in many | | | | We have been encountering reduction in farm |
| states. Over the last decade and a half, there has | | | | produces, especially in the form of after affects of |
| been a paradigm shift as far as uasage of land is | | | | the Green Revolution. Do you think, there is a need |
| concerned. Earlier, there was less pressure on land, | | | | to have a second Green Revolution, although with a |
| hence, there was less of problem too. But in last 3-5 | | | | different flavour? |
| years, the emphasis over the commercial usage of | | | | Aruna Roy: I emphatically believe that there is lot of |
| land has shifted towards acquisition and privatisation | | | | traditional wisdom in India, which have always been |
| of land. Corporate farming and private farming is | | | | ignored. What we must do at this stage is, to have a |
| being insisted upon. The banks don't allow small | | | | complete introspection on agriculture. People here are |
| donors to have any kind of special subsidy which | | | | practicing farming from time immemorial. There are |
| they earlier had before. If you follow the line drawn | | | | farmers who have been maintaining the available |
| by the international financial organisations, then Indian | | | | resources since then. We destroyed those in 50 |
| farmers cannot have any subsidy, but ironically, | | | | years. So the fault is not with the farmers, but with |
| farming in US , Australia and Europe can be | | | | foreign technologies, which does not considers land |
| subsidised. Every single cow is subsidised in Europe. In | | | | as a resource. It does not deal with the protection of |
| that context, people are getting alienated from their | | | | that resource. People and technology which nurtures |
| lands and livelihood. Thus, it becomes imminent than | | | | trees and forest, protect the land, uses the rivers |
| ever before that the interest of 60 per cent of | | | | without polluting them should be encouraged. People |
| Indian population be protected. | | | | still have such measures available with them. One has |
| There has been international pressure through WTO, | | | | has to reach to them. But if only one sided agenda |
| IMF and World Bank. On the other hand we are also | | | | exits, then there is no future. |
| witnessing domestic pressure from big corporate | | | | Numerically, India's GDP is growing at the rate of 8-9 |
| houses to change the policies. Who is more | | | | per cent. If it is, then how can it be utilised for the |
| responsible for the plight of poor? | | | | betterment of the people who are at the lower |
| Aruna Roy: These (domestic corporate houses) are | | | | strata? |
| part of an international community. Are not Indian | | | | Aruna Roy: 8 or 9 per cent growth is alright. But |
| corporates multinational? Even they are investing in | | | | what does it means in real terms? Whether it is going |
| various nations. Their nature is same. The Constitution | | | | to increase private income and interest? We would |
| says that we are a sovereign country and our | | | | like to know exactly what does it mean. We would |
| representatives should follow our mandate. See, no | | | | like to know the breakup of this GDP growth in |
| body would say that India should not be developed | | | | terms of building government resources. Unless this |
| and modernised. But, we should achieve it in | | | | will go up, benefit of this GDP will never reach to the |
| indigenous way and with our own design. | | | | larger section of the country. It is government and |
| We have seen changes in the government over time. | | | | its policies which is directly responsible for the state |
| Various political parties came and went. But the | | | | of the people. Private companies can't be forced to |
| policies do not seem to changing. Do you think there | | | | do these things (developmental). |
| is huge market pressure on the government- | | | | So, do you want to say it has 'failed'? |
| irrespective of the political party governing? | | | | Aruna Roy: I don't say that. But nothing much has |
| Aruna Roy: Who is taking the pressure. Are we not | | | | filtered down to the people. I don't see any village |
| an independent entity? If we are, then to what an | | | | getting road, electricity and school due to this high |
| extent a government could be pressurised? Amartya | | | | rate of growth. In fact people from rural areas are |
| Sen won the Nobel Prize for economics. He says that | | | | migrating to live in urban slums. If it doesn't happens, |
| we can't have globalisation with inequality. If the | | | | then this growth will have some meaning. |
| developed countries say that they have surplus of | | | | You have been very much attached with RTI, |
| money to invest in India, then we Indians have | | | | personally. What is the difference this law has made |
| surplus of manpower. Let the developed countries | | | | in the day-to-day lives of a common man? |
| allow our skilled manpower walk freely in their | | | | Aruna Roy: I think RTI, in real terms, has made a |
| country. How can they expect us to do away with all | | | | phenomenal difference. Two-three things which it has |
| the restrictions, while they continue with most of | | | | done are remarkable. The first and foremost one is |
| them. | | | | that it has democratised the people in a better way. |
| Of late there has been furious actions by Naxals in | | | | If you don't demand answers then the people, who |
| many parts of India. They are against any kind of | | | | are at the helm of affairs, would not be reigned in |
| developmental activities being carried in backward | | | | and then everything would be snatched and sold. This |
| areas. How can this approach be justified? | | | | fact has been understood by many. Recently, |
| Aruna Roy: They were never protesting against all | | | | Habibullah (Chief Information Commissioner) had |
| these 10 years ago. What was happening then? | | | | convened a meeting of Information Commissioners |
| Where were all these developmental activities in | | | | of all states. In this meeting, it was known that |
| these areas? Maoist and Naxal pockets are located in | | | | thousands of applications are coming from the people |
| those areas of the country where there was no | | | | of Maharastra for information. But other states are |
| development and rule of law. Tribals were killed.Their | | | | not maintaining even the records. So the government |
| land and resources were snatched. No body was | | | | is not doing its duty, people are doing. Commission is |
| there to listen to their voice. Now, the roads and | | | | sandwiched in between. It does something and |
| electricity are being brought in these areas when | | | | leaves something. In spite of that, RTI is one |
| multinationals are going to set up mines and factories | | | | important legislation which has given us hope. See, |
| there. Naxalism is the result of the loss of hope and | | | | before this, we were knowing that many things are |
| faith in the system. These things breed Maoism, | | | | going wrong, but we didn't know how to ask for |
| Naxalism and violence. | | | | that information, how to ask for accountability. This |
| I can say as a concerned citizen of India that the | | | | law has paved the way for maintaining accountability. |
| impact of developmental policies and rule of law have | | | | Now something on a personal note. You left a |
| failed in these areas. People do not want to live with | | | | powerful government job and came forward to work |
| violence. There have been repeated effort to deny | | | | for people. Do you think that the type of |
| the right of life to them. If you offer them a | | | | administrative setup we have, is producing hurdles in |
| package and take a decision to treat them equally, | | | | transparent functioning? |
| only then the Naxalism can be cubed down. This | | | | Aruna Roy: The basic changes can't come under the |
| menace has only a political and economic solution. | | | | government. Administration is there to maintain the |
| Using of force against them is not going to do any | | | | status- quo. But bureaucracy is also needed to run |
| trick. It will only increase India's instability. We have | | | | this country. An honest and accountable bureaucracy |
| seen the state sponsored violence like Salawa Judum. | | | | is necessary. We have wrong assumption in India |
| It is not a solution. | | | | that if one per cent of bureaucracy works properly, |
| When human right groups raise their voice against | | | | then the whole country would change. I feel that |
| such atrocities, then they are being captured and put | | | | there must be a democratic and accountable system |
| behind the bars, for example Vinayak Sen. He is | | | | everywhere. Bureaucracy has a role but perhaps we |
| graduate from Christian Medical College and is a gold | | | | give too much of hype to it. |
| medalist. He established a big hospital at Raipur. But | | | | Is it not because we adopted the bureaucratic setup |
| the state government put him into jail by terming him | | | | made up by Britishers and did not change or modify |
| a Maoist. Those who talk about human rights and | | | | it according to our necessities? |